Tech. Strong. Women. EP 3

In this episode of Tech. Strong. Women., guest Nicole Dove, head of security at Riot Games, discusses with hosts Charlene O’Hanlon and Tracy Bannon her non-traditional path into IT and ways in which females can unconsciously sabotage themselves, as well as the impact of a strong mentor, regardless of gender. The video is below followed by a transcript of the conversation.

Charlene O’Hanlon: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Techstrong TV, and welcome to another episode of Techstrong Women, the ongoing series that elevates the conversation about gender equity and parity by celebrating the successes of females in IT, and so much more, we have so many great conversations. I’m Charlene O’Hanlon, as you probably know, but my cohost is Tracy Bannon with Mitre. Tracy, thank you so much for joining me, as always.

Tracy Bannon: Oh, I always get so excited. Thank you very much for allowing me to cohost with you.

Charlene O’Hanlon: Oh, listen, you – we are equals, we are equals, we’re not, you know, superior or inferior. And with us today we have Nicole Dove, who is an amazing, amazing female in IT, cybersecurity, and just a rockstar in the industry. Nicole, thank you so much for joining us today. We’re really thrilled to have you on the show.

Nicole Dove: Thanks for having me. I love any thing, effort, or people who celebrate women in tech, so this is, like, the party to be at. Thanks for having me.

Charlene O’Hanlon: Excellent, all right, well, hopefully, we’ll do right by you today, but do wanna thank you again for being here. We’ve got a lot to unpack in today’s show, but really what I wanna do is start out by, you know, telling us a little bit about what you’re doing today, and maybe how you got to be where you are.

Nicole Dove: Yeah, so I’ve got, like, 50 jobs, and it’s easy [laughter] because I love them all. So, by day, I’m head of security at Riot Games, which is super exciting. It’s a new role for me, so I’m really, really happy to be there, fantastic team, fantastic products and services. I’m also a visiting lecturer at a local university, Clark Atlanta University. And I also extend my teaching into being a LinkedIn Learning instructor, where I create cybersecurity courses. And then I sit on a couple boards for two tech startups. One is called Wraith Audio and the other is called CyberSaint. So, a lot of tech, a lot of learning, a lot of teaching, a lot of people in my world, but I love all of it and I wouldn’t change it for anything.

Tracy Bannon: So how did you find your way, though, to this most recent, right, the head of security?

Nicole Dove: Yeah.

Tracy Bannon: You’re one of the few females that I’ve met, so far, who are truly head of security. I’ve got lots of women who are on the rise, and in the security area in particular, it is booming, and that’s awesome, it’s completely amazing. How did you find your way into hat role?

Nicole Dove: I slipped and fell into tech, and [laughs] this role was something that I don’t know that I expected, but I think that I found myself looking for an opportunity to have impact, right? So, you know, my career started – I went to school for accounting and finance. I started my career on Wall Street; it was all I wanted to do. And when I got there, I quickly realized, like, “Yeah, this may not be it,” right? So, like, I’ve got, you know, I don’t know if it translates, but I’ve got purple hair, you know –

Tracy Bannon: Oh, it does, I see it. [Laughs]

Nicole Dove: Yeah, right? So, you know, back in the day, you know, 20 years ago, it wasn’t as accepted as it is now for, you know, a young woman of color who looks different, ’cause I’m, you know, different than the typical Wall Streeter, maybe to be accepted or to rise through the ranks. But I learned a lot, I learned so much, got into consulting, I just, I loved solving people’s problems, right? I loved the, you know, working on different engagements with different teams and different clients, and I really, really love to travel. But again, much of the big four consulting culture did mimic Wall Street, so I said, “You know, I’ve gotta figure out how to actually make the change,” because I began to see how culture impacts business. So I went all the way to a videogame company. I worked at Take-Two that owns Rockstar – had a blast, stayed there about five years, did some videogame voiceover work, got my first promotion, I was, like, “I’ve found my people.”

And then I wanted to do something a little different, so I got into audit at a payroll company, and that’s where I started to just, like, explore all types of things. I was on a team, we built, staffed, and managed international work centers in Philippines, Romania, India, Brazil. I got to live in Romania for a little while; that was fascinating. But then I started to see how every single thing I did, whether it be Wall Street and treasury or videogames or payroll or even international operations, tech was the common thread, right? Like, we essentially took 20 percent of the company’s headcount and staffed it overseas, and they were able to be seamless and flawless because of technology. I’m, like, “There is something with this thing.” So, I really just took, you know, my expertise from risk and my willingness to learn tech, and that’s how I got into cyber.

And what I love about this role is, you know, as a company that’s growing so rapidly, you see what’s happening in the industry, ransomware attacks, new technology, I mean, everything is just exponentially changing. What I like is that I get to bring that business background to cyber, to tech, and help people understand that tech is not – it doesn’t slow you down. If you position it correctly, it can actually enable innovation and speed and agility and creativity. And that’s what I love most. I would’ve never ever thought I would work in tech, like, I can barely hook up a printer, but I know risk [laughs], right? And I know people. And a lot of tech is people and risk and really just getting the best product and service to the customer, and that’s essentially what brought me right here today.

Charlene O’Hanlon: What I love about that story is the fact that you did not swim in your own lane, you were going back and forth. So many people, I think, just kind of create a vision for themselves and they go for it. you know, it’s, “This is my goal in life is, you know, is to be a cybersecurity professional.” Great, you know, it’s – but you’ve had a lot of so many varied experiences that you’ve been able to kind of parlay into what you’re doing now. And I wonder, how did you create the narrative behind that? Because, you know, when you’re thinking about, you know, say, a job title or a job description, and you’re maybe going for a particular job or something like that, so many women, and we’ve had this discussion before, if they don’t check all the boxes, they’ll never apply for a particular job.

And so, you know, so many times, you look at a job description and you’re, like, “I’m just not sure, you know, that what my skills are will resonate or will translate very well, without me actually having to explain how things go and how they do actually work.” So, how have you created the narrative around your experience into what you’re doing today and how it all fits together?

Nicole Dove: Yeah, so, creating and changing narratives is the story, right? And I think the important part was not allowing these unicorn job descriptions to intimidate me, right? I think the second motivation was seeing men in positions that they didn’t qualify for, I’m, like, “Well, you know what, if they can do it, why not?” Right? And so, but as a woman, you know, like, we think a lot, we’re very tactical, right, we think things through. I tried to not think so much about what I couldn’t do and thought about what I could do, right? So I’ll look at a job description, everything I have, I’ll cross that out, I’ve got that in the bag. Then I look at the things that I don’t have and think through, “How can I get these things?” or, “What in my experience may not be exactly this but lends another perspective on this that I can bring?”

And then the last part is, I’m a nontraditional technologist, so there is gonna be a host of things that I bring that nobody else is gonna bring, right? And that’s gonna be, like, the magic potion. So, you know, I often challenge – you know, one of my mentors said, “I don’t even read the job description.” [Laughs] Right? But it takes away that intimidation factor. Because there’s so much of the job that’s not on the paper. That’s always something I ask in interviews, “What do I need to know about this job that I cannot read on this paper?” And those are the things that, you know, we need to be prepared for, because it’s not so much what you expect to happen; the challenges are always the unexpected. And so, just by digging in that toolbelt and keeping an inventory for my own self, it helps you have something to pull from when you’re changing that story, or wanting to change your story and wanting to know what you can leverage to unlock that next level.

Tracy Bannon: You bring up a really good point, a side conversation, which is: what has happened with job descriptions? They’ve become magic unicorn listings, and quite frankly, anybody that I interview, anybody, any that I look at, there’s never anybody who can check all of the boxes.

Nicole Dove: Yes. [Laughs]

Tracy Bannon: And it was an important message 20 years ago, but it’s an even more important message now. And there’s a reverse to that, which is, the folks who are putting those things out need to not focus on finding unicorns. You might run across one by accident, or the four-leaf clover in that one yard that you walk by, but in general, what are those applicable skills? What are the crossovers? And what you had was a lot of crossover skills and a uniqueness that other people didn’t bring to the table. That’s thought diversity, right? Educational diversity, background diversity, right? That’s what has helped to jettison you forward. That’s fantastic advice.

Nicole Dove: Yeah, thank you.

Tracy Bannon: So, you know, I’d be interested, when you are going through and working and mentoring with other people, and helping them to figure out what they want to do with their career, are there times where they’ll bring a job description and you’ll help them to walk through, like, “Don’t look at this,” or interpret it in that way? Do you help them apply the same skills that you’ve done for yourself?

Nicole Dove: Absolutely. So, this is an exercise that I’ve used – so this exercise actually was a big part of me coming into tech, right? I was very intimidated by the job descriptions in technology, and it was only because of amazing mentors who were just, like, “No, you can do this. [Laughs] Go in the room and sell what you have, right? You can do this.” And so, it’s – you know, things are so much bigger when we don’t put them down on paper, right? And so, and I realized that a lot of other professionals feel that same intimidation, whether it’s within their own field or going into a new field, especially going into a new field, even more going into tech, right? Because it just seems so huge and big and so much relies on it, right?

And so, because that exercise was so successful for me, it’s something I walk people through when they have something that they wanna do, when they have a big role they wanna apply for. Like, it’s a great way to pressure-test it, right? Because now you walk in pretty much knowing what they want and what they expect, and now you have the opportunity to align yourself with that, and be honest about what you don’t have, right, but what your thought process is to how you will get it. ‘Cause nobody knows everything, right?

Tracy Bannon: I’m gonna guess there are times where, whether it’s you or whether it’s somebody that you mentor, goes into this conversation and the Charlene O’Hanlons walk away going, “Oh, my gosh, that’s a great idea. I hadn’t thought about that,” right? [Laughter]

Nicole Dove: I hope so.

Tracy Bannon: So, whether they hire you or not, they’ve learned and gained kind of in this, you know, odd reverse-mentoring that happens, when you’re bringing those new ideas to the table.

Nicole Dove: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. And I’ve had some interviews that I’ve done horribly on, but those were learning experiences, too, right?

Charlene O’Hanlon: Yeah. I feel like, you know, with these job descriptions in particular, I think companies do that on purpose, so that they can kind of gauge the type of people who do end up applying for those jobs. Because those are the ones who are the mavericks, if you will, those are the ones who really feel as though they can bring as much as possible to the table. And they know that they’re not, you know, they don’t have 45 years of whatever, you know, but they think that they’re qualified for the job, and that alone should get them in the door. But, you know, but at the end of the day, it’s kind of this push and pull between being what people expect you to be and being your authentic self, your true self, what you know you’re capable of doing and who you know you are at your heart. And that sometimes can be a difficult thing to reconcile, being your true authentic self, when you know you don’t tick all the boxes. And so, has that ever been a challenge for you to kind of get beyond, you know, just knowing that maybe who you are is not really everything that this person wants you to be on paper, but you know that you bring so much more to the conversation?

Nicole Dove: You know, so, let’s unpack the term “who they want you to be,” right? Because what they really want is somebody who can get the job done, right? We get in our heads, like, and I am so guilty, and honestly, Charlene, I’m guilty of this with every single job that I take, even till this day. I don’t know why this is a lesson I have to keep learning, but it’s, like, as soon as I step outside the box and I do something bigger, you know, I’m, like, “Oh, crap, they really think I can do this.” [Laughter] [Crosstalk], like, “Oh, okay, I gotta deliver, now.” And you get so caught up in that ticking and tying and going back to that profile that sometimes you don’t see the forest for the trees.

Because when you really take a look, it’s, like, it’s not about knowing those things; it’s about being – it’s not even about knowing everything. It’s about being relentless about finding the solution, being resourceful about looking for the answer, right? If there’s something that you don’t know, instead of just going to ask someone, figure out a couple options. Do you know how much I google, like, all the time, right? And I felt so bad about that, at first, but now that I’ve been in cyber for a while, I realize there are so many domains, like, I know a little bit about everything, right? But sometimes I need that deep expertise.

I’m not expected to be an expert across the board. So, I think it’s more about taking a step back and understanding what’s needed to thrive and be successful in the role, and making sure that I’m checking those boxes as opposed to, like, a set of technical aptitudes and expertises. ‘Cause I’m not gonna have that. I study all the time now, and it’s never gonna happen, but it takes some time. And as much as I’m saying this, I’m probably gonna be going through this tomorrow [laughter] [crosstalk].

Tracy Bannon: I think that it’s common, and I’m finding that at first I thought that it was more women. Sometimes we call it the Imposter Syndrome, and I used to think maybe it was more with females, but I’m actually realizing that it’s not. It’s everywhere, it’s everybody. However, to your point earlier, I do see a difference with a woman looking at the list and wanting to be a perfectionist and looking to checkmark everything on that list, where, sometimes a man goes, “Ah, I have three out of five. That’s good enough.”

And I think what you’re saying is: don’t worry about everything that’s there. Be close, be energetic, bring your life to it, bring all of your life energy along with you, and see what happens with it. See what happens with it.

Nicole Dove: Yes.

Tracy Bannon: You know, along that line is, the number of changing job requirements or job descriptions where they no longer are including advanced degrees. I’m seeing a lot in technology, where it’s, like, “You know, we used to want a master’s degree in compute science, and somebody who is doing postdoctoral.” There would be wonderful educational academic credentials that they would want. IBM’s one of the first ones to say, “Let’s go nontraditional,” and they’re expanding their workforce in crazy amounts. Do you think that that’s helping with some of the other work that you’re doing? I really wanna hear a little bit about IANS and that kind of mentoring, because you’re helping, you know, people who are in all kinds of different roles. Now, you’re not necessarily mentoring kids, at that point; you’re out there mentoring the world.

Nicole Dove: Yeah, so I love this question, because I think, and especially with me now having a foot in the education and the academia world, I’m seeing things shift, right? I love LinkedIn Learning because it saved me so many days, because there can be a project that I need to work on or lead, that I might not have in-depth experience in. And I can go and find a course on LinkedIn Learning, and within an hour, right, I’ve got a foundational understanding of what’s happening, from a verified expert or professional. And my certificates from Harvard, my double bachelor’s from Clark Atlanta didn’t create that, right? It was that one hour that I sat and learned.

When I think about, like, different career experiences that I’ve had, on-the-job learning is something that I think hasn’t been prioritized as much in the past as maybe it is now, right? And I think that’s what’s beginning to rise. I think education is going to shift. I think on-demand learning and on-the-job experience is going to become more acknowledged and respected than it has been traditionally. And I talk a lot about this, I’ve got a podcast called “Urban Girl Corporate World,” you’d be surprised at what – I had a CISO who went to school for women’s studies, right? The head of risk and security at TikTok, she went to school for finance, she was a former Wal Streeter, too, right? But as leaders, it gives us so many different lenses. And that’s what I really love about working with IANS as faculty.

So, IANS is a service that organizations can subscribe to and they provide a ton of support in different ways, so they’ve got forums and conferences and online classes. But they have this service called “Ask an Expert,” and essentially, you can look across any cybersecurity domain, we’ve got about 85 to 100 faculty, typically CISO or CISO directs, and you can spend an hour on the phone with this professional expert and talk about anything. I have helped CISOs look at their strat plans, develop security awareness programs, help government agencies enhance their third-party risk management programs, right? They’re not – this is – and this is different from, again, they could go on with their learning and get that foundational aspect, but they want the experience, right?

And I think to your point, Tracy, that’s what mentorship is about: getting the firsthand perspective from somebody with experience. Because theory is great, but execution is so much better, and what I’m able to share is, “Hey, I’ve done that before,” or, “Oh, you’re thinking about doing this? Well, I did that and it flopped, and here’s why, here’s what you need to be mindful of.” And that’s what’s, I find, really, really special about that offering with IANS.

Tracy Bannon: I think you’re gonna see, you know, to the point you just made, the education system is changing, higher education. One of my besties is a tenured professor and we talk about this all the time, and how it changed with the GI Bill, how it’s changing now. But we are always going to need specialized STEM, we’re always going to need those researchers, we’re always going to need the theorist. So the theorist won’t go away, but we also don’t need everybody to be a theorist. So how do we move towards the type of education that you’re talking about, which is relevant to where we are now, based on experience but relevant to what’s happening right now, with those theorists helping us to get smarter and stronger as we go. I think we’re gonna see a big change in the number of students that are, you know, looking for at four-year degrees for different reasons.

Nicole Dove: I agree.

Charlene O’Hanlon: Yeah, I remember even before, you know, the pandemic, there was a big push to get people doing trades, going back into the trades, because we just, we didn’t have – everybody was in college, so nobody could actually unplug a toilet, basically. So, you know, now with the pandemic, we have all these people who have gone on and done a lot of online learning, gotten certifications, and recognizing that, “I hope I just didn’t waste three years of college money, you know, learning something that, quite literally, the last six months or the last nine months, going online and really hyper-focusing what I’m looking at, what I’m learning about, is helping me in my career more than my four-year degree ever did.” So, I agree with you 100 percent, that the education system as we know it is changing, the traditional four-year degree probably is gonna be going away. And between you and me, I hope it happens within the next six years, ’cause I’m sitting on a really bad 529 account that I would like to use that money to buy a summer home or something like that. [Laughter]

Tracy Bannon: I don’t think it’s ever gonna go away, but I think we’re going to see it return to a more pure sense. We need – now, I’m an advocate of the liberal arts programs, where, you know, we teach people how to teach. I’m also a big advocate of nontraditional education. It can be on the job, it can be through, gosh, bootcamps that you take, it can be through LinkedIn Learning. We just have to help with corporate America, to think about the diversity of the education itself, and to be more accepting of it. That’s the pivot point that we’re at right now, as I’ve been in some interviews where people have, you know, where we’re interviewing and I’ve had to kind of mute out and say, “Guys, they don’t have that, but that’s okay. Are you not listening to the story?” Right? “Are you not listening to the story?” Now, Nicole, do you also –

Nicole Dove: I agree with that.

Tracy Bannon: Go ahead, I’m sorry.

Nicole Dove: I’m sorry, go ahead, Tracy.

Tracy Bannon: I was gonna ask you if you also, you know, you’re mentoring adults in a formal setting with IANS. Are you also still mentoring with some of the other outreach groups that you were working with before?

Nicole Dove: Yeah, so, I typically, kind of the first priority for mentorship that I get now are my students, so that go through my lecture series, just because I’m finding, quite naturally, you know, you have, like, that top 20 percent of your students that really, really are excellent and really engage the content, and then really take it to practice. And a lot of them, ’cause my course is MBA level, a lot of them are, you know, really starting, you know, or management level or supervisory level in their careers. And, you know, bringing in that people aspect is a totally different ballgame than just being a tactical executor. I also speak a lot at conferences. My podcast has an online community of about 800 women all over the world, where we talk about, you know, different things about our experiences as women in the workplace.

And then, you know, this industry is so small and we’re just circles of people intersecting. And so, there’s always, you know, different CISOs who are starting mentoring circles, or they may want you to meet someone and meet someone else. So a lot of it is just, is very organic. But I am very intentional about connecting with professionals on the rise, on, like, the next generation of professionals, because every single fantastic opportunity I have had, nine times out of ten it’s gonna be because of a mentor or somebody who sponsored me or spoke up for me. So I feel obligated to pay it forward. There’s no possible way.

Charlene O’Hanlon: I agree, I think, you know, where we go in our lives, from a career perspective, has a lot to do with the influence that other people have on us. And as well as the influence that we have on other people. So, I would be loath to be able to count on one hand how many experiences or how many opportunities I got by answering an ad in the newspaper or online. The best ones have always been, “You know, I know somebody who’s looking for this person. I think you’d be perfect for the job.” So, and I think, again, that kind of goes back to that, that being your authentic self conversation, because, you know, these people know who you are, they know what you’re capable of doing, and they know what you can bring to an organization.

And I think that can only be had by developing these relationships, whether it’s with the people you’re mentoring or who are mentoring you, or even just people who you’re working with on a day-to-day basis. I always think that it’s best to bring your authentic self to whatever you do, and that can pay off in spades.

Nicole Dove: Agreed.

Tracy Bannon: Now, Nicole, you do a lot of mentoring, but let me turn the question a little bit. Did you have mentors? So are there people that you’re, like, “If it hadn’t been for Joe or Sally or Mary or – “? [Laughter] Any stories you can share with us, there?

Charlene O’Hanlon: I’m sensing a yes, there.

Nicole Dove: Man, there are so many stories I can share. I’m gonna share [laughs] – so, I was at a tech conference, once, and, you know, even now, but even more so years ago, there are very few women, right, in attendance. And so, I am a complete introvert, and so, after I engage with people, lots and lots of people, I need to take a break and just kind of like replenish. So, if you’re at a tech conference, the best place to take a break, as a woman, is the women’s lounge, because nobody else is gonna be in there. So, I’m at the women’s lounge, I’ll never forget this, it was the Saint Regis in Atlanta, and I’m just hanging out being an introvert on my phone, and in walks a woman who was on the stage earlier. And I had really admired what she spoke about, and I had said to myself, “Oh, I’m gonna reach out, I’m gonna talk to her before the day is over.”

But again, I’m in, like, relax introvert mode, “I’m in the women’s restroom, that’s so weird, I’m not gonna talk to her,” and I just kind of left it alone. And she came back and she was, like, “Oh, my god, you’re an introvert, too.” I’m, like, “Yes, my people.” And so, we just started talking and I mentioned some things that she had spoken about earlier, and she was just, like, “Oh, my goodness, we just have to stay connected.” And we have. She has been so instrumental to my growth in the industry, right? I ended up changing jobs sometime after. She helped me think through, you know, which options to take which aligned and why, right?

“The industry is small, I know this leader, I know that person. Oh, you need to meet such-and-such,” right? Like, if I really trace it back, my opportunity at Riot kind of goes back to her and some folks that she connected me with sometime ago. And she’s – her name’s Olivia Rose; she’s a CISO at Amplitude. She is just phenomenal and fantastic, and I strive and hope to be half of what she was to me, to many others. Because literally, mentors have changed my life. Another one is Trina Ford, who’s the CISO at A&G. When I was first thinking about coming into tech, she was the chief business security officer at my then company, and I reached out to her and I was, like, “I’m not sure, but I’m really interested.” And she was, like, “I think you would be good. You should interview.”

Right, just getting that nod of approval or getting that push can make so much of a difference. And these are women that I call on often for advice or perspective, and they’re just fabulous, and I only can imagine, you know, what challenges they had to overcome to get where they are, right? And so, I’m really grateful to have amazing women like that in my space and my circle.

Charlene O’Hanlon: It sounds like they were all organic mentoring, you know, they weren’t set up, you know, just, like, you click with somebody or you don’t. And if you click with somebody, then, you know, those are the best relationships to have, because you know each other, You know where your strengths and weaknesses are.

Nicole Dove: Yeah, a lot of people try to force it. [Laughs]

Charlene O’Hanlon: Yeah, exactly, exactly, and that’s why I love the idea of mentoring programs, and I love them when they work, but I really do think that the best mentors are the ones who you actually kind of find on your own, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Nicole Dove: Yeah, I agree, I agree.

Tracy Bannon: Now, have all of your mentors been women? And the reason I ask that is that, when I look back over my career, a lot of my career, I’ve been the only woman in the room. So, one of the most impactful mentors to me was a fellow by the name of Scott Bar, and he was the wind beneath my wings. He just said, “No, you are this. Go and do this,” and he would open doors, not literally open the doors, he would open the door of opportunity and say, “You need to charge through that,” and we would talk it through. And I know that I would not be where I am right now had he not, you know, looked at this person a couple years younger and said, “What are you doing over there being quiet? Get up here at the table.”

Nicole Dove: Yeah, so they have not all been women. One of my favorite and most impactful mentors was a man, Steve. I was working at audit and I audited him, and I think he was just really impressed with my preparedness, my executive presence, and he told me, he said, “If you ever need anything, let me know.” And I was, like, “Okay, I’m gonna call you,” [laughter] and I called him, right? And he helped me navigate some of the, at that point, some of the biggest decisions that I had in my career. And what I loved about Steve is that, you know, first of all, legal is much like cyber audit, it’s a service to the business, right?

So he has a perspective of how you have to position your offerings in order to get buy-in, how to effectively manage relationships and rapport. Which is something that I might not get from another business leader, because, right, they are income-driving. What I also liked about him, he would always, sometimes, like, I was so young and, like, so ambitious, and he would just say, “Nicole, get out of my office. Like, what are you doing? What are you talking about, right?” And I loved the candor, because sometimes you need to tell super young ambitious kids, like, “A lot of things are timing. Not now.”

And I can’t imagine, had I taken some of these opportunities that were just crazy, it would’ve rerouted my path. But having someone to ground me and tell me when I’m absolutely nuts, but then motivate me and push me. And what I love most – and I say I love most ’cause I love so much about Steve – he never tried to make a decision for me. He helped me think through the consequences and downstream impact of my options, and that is a great mentor.

Tracy Bannon: That absolutely is, don’t tell me what to do. I may ask you for a little bit more guidance than what you’re giving me right now, I may say, “Let’s roleplay a little bit,” but don’t tell me what to do, and teach me, help me figure it out.

Nicole Dove: Yes, yeah.

Tracy Bannon: I love it, I love it.

Charlene O’Hanlon: That is great. So, you’re actually keynoting at RSA, this year, right?

Nicole Dove: Yes, I’m so excited. I am really, really excited.

Charlene O’Hanlon: So tell us about that, how did that come about?

Nicole Dove: So, RSA, I mean, that’s like the godfather of the tech conferences, and I remember when I first got in tech, one of my peers had presented at RSA and I was just, like, “Wow – ” It seemed so big, so far, so great, and I was, like, “I wanna do that, one day,” because I really, really love speaking, and I love speaking about tech, and I love speaking about being a woman in tech. So, when I saw the open call for RSA, I was, like, “You know what, I’m gonna throw my name in the hat,” and I did, and it worked. So, I’m really excited, I’m gonna be on the C-suite track, and I’m going to be talking about how your business information security officers are your cybersecurity secret weapon. It’s a new emerging role in the industry, right?

Many companies are starting to build this into their teams, their leadership teams, but I don’t know that a lot of organizations know how to best leverage them. And so, I think by helping them understand how to unlock all of the benefits, so I think it can really help take organizations and their cybersecurity programs to another level.

Charlene O’Hanlon: That is awesome. I wish you the best of luck with that. That’s gonna be a great discussion. And, you know, do you have other folks who are gonna be speaking there with you, or are you doing it all by yourself?

Nicole Dove: So I’m doing a solo presentation by myself, yeah.

Charlene O’Hanlon: That’s great.

Nicole Dove: Yeah.

Tracy Bannon: Well, hopefully we see you there. I am hoping to make it there. It’s hanging in the balance, right now, but it would be fun to connect, yeah.

Nicole Dove: Yes, listen, we won’t be hard to find, I’ll have purple hair, you’ll have pink hair, right? [Laughter]

Tracy Bannon: That’s right. Form our own –

Charlene O’Hanlon: With the grey hair, so. [Laughter]

Tracy Bannon: All colors and coalitions, we’ll be doing it. You know, as we’ve been talking about mentoring, I had mentioned this to Charlene, earlier, you know, I try to really tailor where I spend my time, not to be stingy with it, but it’s very easy to bleed out by just wanting to be too many things to too many people. I noticed a trend across yours, you’re not necessarily at the food pantry, but you are – you know, and I don’t mean that as a negative, I mean you’re figuring out how do you get the most bang for the buck? How do you take the things that you’re doing during the day – it looks like you’re using that as a way to kind of tailor where you’re mentoring and how you’re leaning in. Is that fair to say? I mean, give some guidance to those listening on, how do you figure out where to mentor, where to build community, where to invest your time with the extracurriculars, you know, that are tangential to career?

Nicole Dove: Yeah, I think the first thing is being intentional, right, and being self-aware. It’s, like, and it starts with your own journey. Everything that I pour into people is motivated by what I wish I knew then, right? Like, I strive to be the person that I needed then, and I think that begins to lay the roadmap for the communities you engage in, the perspective that you hope to share, right? And so, I think another big thing, too, is you can’t be everything to everybody, so it’s about carving out time for that specifically. So, for me, I typically will take mentoring calls one day a week, and I’ll block off, you know, maybe three or four hours, right? But I also, and maybe it’s not necessarily mentoring, because when I say – well, maybe it is.

Because I see mentoring as more of like a long-term relationship-building, right? But I think sometimes, and I think you have to be – there has to be a finite amount of that. Because if I’m gonna mentor 50 people, I’m gonna give them just a tiny bit. I think they deserve more. So, I’m more than willing to have a 30-minute conversation and talk to somebody, you know, go through things and chat through things and pressure test things and brainstorm, right? But there’s going to be a reduced few that I really am gonna connect with and carry through that process. I remember I had a mentor, once, and she said, “I do this for one a year.” And I was, like, you know what, I love that, because it’s like we’ve got stuff to accomplish, we set goals upfront, we check in, and we make sure that we’re on the right path.

And if we’re not seeing results, we change courses. But again, I think it’s all about carving out time, being intentional, being selective, both the mentor and the mentee, understanding what it is that you have to offer and what that’s anchored in and rooted in, and just finding your people. And some of it is trial and error, right? You don’t get it right every time, but you’ve just gotta start somewhere and it will all kind of it.

Tracy Bannon: But you’ve mentioned that there were some very intentional mentoring relationships where you have goals that are set, and so, it’s more formal.

Nicole Dove: Mm-hmm.

Tracy Bannon: But there’s also another side of it that you hit on, which is, there are accidental or unintentional or casual mentoring that happens. Both are really valuable. I do have women that reach out who want soundbite guidance, which eventually turns into a little bit more. But you’re right, you kind of have to limit that, because, you know, that opinions that are provided without getting to understand them and know the context of their lifeforce, right, what’s their spark, what’s their essence. I can give them some generalities that they might be able to google [laughter] or they might be able to find in a book. So, the formality, did you find that the formality, making sure that you set goals with a mentor, helped, as well?

Nicole Dove: You know, I think even in the casual mentorships, there is still a little bit of formality in there. Because I’m not going to set up time with, you know, somebody that I admire, just to, like, you know, shoot the breeze, you know? Like, it just, it doesn’t make sense. But there are spaces for that, right? But if I’m gonna take an hour or 30 minutes or 45 minutes out of your day, I wanna make it worth my while, right? And so, I think there’s always – we always have things that we’re working towards, right? And some of those goals are big, some of those goals are small. All are relevant.

But I think making sure that, when you get access to this person with this knowledge and perspective that you wanna pull from, you make the most of that time, ’cause time is the most valuable thing that we have. And, you know, some personalities lean towards they need that structure, right? Some people, for the time, they need that structure. On the other side, you know, some personalities like it a little bit more fluid, that’s what works, go for it. But I think within both, we’ve gotta be intentional in what we’re hoping to gain and what we’re hoping to give.

Tracy Bannon: Thank you for that. I learn something every time we have a conversation, every time that we engage in one of these, with any of the guests that we’ve had. Charlene, I think we’re running a little bit low on time.

Charlene O’Hanlon: Yes, we only have a couple of minutes left, so I wanna actually close with one question, and maybe we can just kind of think about it, if we can’t actually answer it here. But what is the one thing that you wish you had done differently in your career?

Nicole Dove: Not second-guess myself. Just go for it. Worrying is a waste of time. It’s a waste of time. Either you win or you learn, right? So, you know, winners never quit and quitter never win, so just keep going. If I would’ve just kept – I would’ve probably saved everybody so much time, including myself.

Charlene O’Hanlon: That is great advice. I actually recently read something, somebody said something to the effect of, “You can’t run the race before it starts.” You know, you can’t worry about things that you really don’t have any control over, so, I love that, I love that, you know, stop second-guessing; just live your life, you know, in the best way possible. So, I think it’s great. Nicole, thank you so much for your time, your expertise, just for being so awesome. We really do appreciate your being on Techstrong Women. It was a great conversation. I sure hope you’ll come back for it and join us again on a future episode.

Nicole Dove: Absolutely. Thank you, ladies, Charlene, Tracy, you are amazing, and I love this platform and what you’re doing.

Tracy Bannon: Thanks, guys.

Charlene O’Hanlon: Thank you. All right, everybody, we’ve got lots more Techstrong TV coming up, so stay tuned.